Sunday, August 5, 2012

Gay Marriage...The FACTS


Whether you agree with gay marriage or not you should read this and take in the FACTS on the situation.  I have tried to address the numerous arguments I have heard against the gay community. If you have any other arguments I would love to debate them with you.  I hope that after you read this you will be able to look into your heart and find compassion.  I will preface all I am about to say with the fact that I am a heterosexual married female (for those of you who don't know me.) I am also a Christian...but not the judgmental hateful kind.  I do not have a personal stake in this fight other than to live in a world with less hatred and more equality. 

Argument #1: “But my Bible says right here that being gay is wrong.  Let me quote you some passages.”
Response: You can quote Bible verses til the cows come home but the FACTS are as follows.  It is NOT a REQUIREMENT of anyone taking vows to be religious at ALL much LESS to be a Christian. In fact you can worship the DEVIL if you like.  You can disregard a belief in God altogether!  The ONLY stipulation you have to gain a marriage license is that you are a man and a woman.  Your Bible verses might be valuable to you but not to others.  The Bible is not the LAW.  The Bible is a book written by flawed men that you CHOOSE to personally give value to.  How would you feel if someone wanted to force you to abide by the rules in another religious work…say the Koran? This is the equivalent of what you are doing…forcing others to live abide by the supposed laws in YOUR religion.  And stop using religion as a shield to mask what is, in its truest form bigoted hate-mongering.

Argument #2: “Marriage is a religious institution.”
Response:  YOUR marriage might be a religious one but it is again NOT A REQUIREMENT.  The GOVERNMENT issues marriage licenses NOT the church. It is not necessary that they be signed or endorsed by ANY religious official at all.  In the state of Florida I can…and WAS married by a notary.  You can even have your friend go ONLINE and get a license to marry you and no religious affiliation whatsoever is required. If you CHOOSE to be married in a church by an anointed one, that is your choice. Or you can be married by Elvis.

Argument #3:  “But if you let gays marry then it will ruin the value of MY marriage.”
Response:  It’s not like someone put their car up on blocks or threw a couch on their lawn.  This isn’t like home values.  If your neighbors are gay it doesn’t bring down YOUR property value.  The quality of your marriage is unaffected and 100% in your control.   Maybe if more people worried about their OWN marriage instead of keeping others from the same, we wouldn’t have such a high divorce rate in this country.

Argument #4: “Blah blah blah… the sanctity of marriage?”
Response:  Really?  Sanctity? Heterosexuals have taken away the true sanctity of marriage, if that even ever existed, a LONG time ago.  Not only do HALF the couples who marry DIVORCE but I can be divorced 20 times and keep going back for more!  Is it really “the one true marriage” if you’ve had more than one?? Furthermore, the ceremony does not require a church or religious anointing of any kind. Hell I don’t even have to say actual vows.  I can make up my own shit to say that has nothing to do with God or promises or even love.  I can have my lavish overdone wedding on TV wearing 3 gowns and then divorce a week later. Sanctity might be something you value in your own wedding (which is perfectly fine and no one is taking away from you) but it again is not a requirement by the law.  Oh and while we are on that subject it also does not affect the sanctity of YOUR marriage if indeed you feel you have that.  In fact if gays are allowed to marry do you know how that will affect your life?  IN NO WAY AT ALL.  Your marriage (or ability to do so as many times as you like and still call yourself SANCTIMONIOUS) will still be intact.

Argument #5: “The gays will make a mockery of marriage.”
Response:  Really…the gays do?  I think I can prove my point in a few words…DOG weddings, Bridezillas, Kim Kardashian, The Bachelor.  We make a complete mockery every day of marriage in this country.  But that’s Ok because we like it!  It entertains us.  As long as it’s a man and a woman we can trash even the concept of marriage in a one hour show.   We don’t need gays to make a mockery of marriage.  Heterosexuals do it every day.

Argument #6: “I just don’t like the gays. I feel like they are always shoving their agenda down my throat.”
Response:  Oh you mean like you are cramming your religion down THEIR throats?   You don’t have to like them.  You don’t have to interact with them.  It’s like avocados.  I don’t like avocados but I’m not going to run screaming from the table if one shows up and I am certainly not going to spend my day making other people hate avocados or try to ban them! You can like what you want.  No one is asking you to LIKE the gays.   All you have to do it ignore them and let them live in peace.  No one is forcing you to go to a gay wedding.  That is your choice.  But again, you have no right to force your opinions on others when it affects their lives.

Argument #7: “We will have to agree to disagree.  This is like politics.” 
Response:  No.  No it is not at all.  We all have an equal stake in politics and our opinions are our own.  By taking a part in an active cause to deny someone rights you strip them of their dignity.  You make them a lesser being than yourself.  You might as well push to enact slavery again.  It is the same thing.  You have no right to impose your views on others to the detriment of an entire group of people.   When it came to slavery it took a war to decide what common sense should have dictated long before that!  Once gay marriage is legal THEN we can agree to disagree on it.  When we are ALL held as equal in the eyes of the law.

Argument #8:  “Gays are not Christians.”
Response:  Not necessarily true. There are plenty of straight people who are not Christians and we let THEM get married!!  (again refer to argument #1) However, you are also wrong that gays can’t be Christians. I know gays who ARE Christians and who have had to endure rejection or live secret lives to continue worshiping.  This reminds me of the origin of the Christian fish.  There was a time when being a Christian required people to worship in secret unsure of who else was worshiping.  The fish symbol was how Christians found safety.  For a gay Christian there is no safety.  I was taught to bring people into the church and not shun them away.  I don’t ever recall a lesson that involved in any way picking and choosing WHO I brought to Christ.  I guess I was misinformed.  I guess what I should have been saying is that you can only come to Christ if you meet his criteria as outlined in the Bible that he did not write!??

Argument #9: “The law says marriage is between a man and a woman.”
Response:  An antiquated law born of religion.  This law can and should be changed with the times (just as slavery was abolished, just as women were made whole and equal to men in the eyes of the law). As we have become more enlightened, we see that some of the laws created by our forefathers in a very different era, need to be altered, but it seems the self-righteous moral minority still holds its rule over any amount of common sense.  Laws are changed every day to accommodate the changing needs of a society.  Gay marriage is a movement whose time has come.

Argument #10: “Being gay is a choice.  They can choose to be straight if they want to get married.”
Response:  First of all who would CHOOSE to be gay in today’s world?  To what end? Who would CHOOSE to be ridiculed by society, abandoned by their own families and friends, have their lives threatened?  Who would CHOOSE to be victims of violence and persecution?  I have gay friends who live in fear every day of losing their jobs if they come out.  Who would CHOOSE that? I had a friend whose parents offered him a larger sum of money to “renounce his gayness.”  I have watched friends forced to live a secret life and tell their families they have a “roommate” for years because they don’t feel a lesbian/gay partnership would be accepted.  I watched a friend die of AIDS unable to tell his own family what he was dying of! Can you even for one moment understand that struggle?  I know people who for YEARS struggled to be something they were simply not…straight…and when they could finally (after of course accepting that they will likely lose their family and friends) come out they blossomed into who they truly are and who they were created to be.  I dated a guy who was struggling with what his parents and his religion told him was right and who he was deep inside.  One day he broke down and cried saying that he has tried for years to date women but it was becoming increasingly more evident that he just had no attraction to women.  He told me he could never tell his family because they made it very clear that they would never accept a gay son.  We sat on his floor and talked all night long.  He expressed how much he wanted to get married and have children and how if he admitted he was gay that hope was over for him FOREVER. I was the first person he uttered those words to…”I’m gay”.  I saw in his eyes how terrified he was at that reality.  I saw how broken he was and how desperate he was to just “be normal”.  How every moment since he was a young child he knew he was different and tried to change and deny who he was but just couldn’t any longer. There was no doubt in my mind after that moment that being gay is NOT a choice.   I am still friends with him to this day and proud to say he has found love with a wonderful man…who he shares his life with but still, after all these years, can’t marry. 

Argument #11:  “God doesn’t approve of gays and they will not be accepted into heaven.”
Response:  You know this how?  Because God spoke to you?  I am pretty sure if you have a little sit down with the creator of the universe he would probably be more concerned with you demoralizing his creations!  After all God doesn’t make mistakes right?  Everyone is created in his image right? I think maybe God would tell you that you have been put on this earth to learn love and acceptance and he is disappointed that you have been unable or unwilling to open your heart to do that and worse yet using his name to justify it all!!  He would tell you that there is NO path through hatred to love.   I think you would be humbled and embarrassed by your bigotry in his mighty presence.

It is absurd to me that we are even having this discussion.  It breaks my heart to see my friends lives destroyed by this.  If you would for one moment take the time to get to know someone who is gay (although I am sure you already do but they are too afraid to tell you they are for fear of your severe judgement!)…if you would open your eyes and look into their lives and see how they have been mistreated and persecuted.  If you could see the pain that you inflict every day on people you don’t even know, you would change your mind.

Many years ago I was in Costa Rica (a very gay friendly country) and I sat intently watching a male couple across from us.  I looked at how they held hands and laughed and looked lovingly into each other’s eyes.  I couldn’t help but think, as I sat there with my own husband holding his hand how lucky I was to be able to openly embrace him…to wear his ring as a symbol of our love and fidelity.  When I saw that couple…their hands were our hands, their laughter was our laughter. I thought of all my gay friends back home and how to enjoy that simple pleasure they would need to LEAVE THE COUNTRY.  It saddened me so deeply that a country like ours with all its wealth and power would choose to use it to step on an entire class of its citizens... to not allow them to openly love, when we certainly allow people to openly hate.  A country, by the way, founded by people fleeing from oppression.  The same oppression we now impose on others! And what is even sadder is that by being a society that denies its citizens the right to show love in an open forum we actually hurt ourselves…ALL of us.  When I was in Europe in high school (MANY years ago) we noticed that people would walk down the street holding hands.  Just regular heterosexual people.  Maybe best friends…maybe a mom and grown daughter.  Men and women alike were seen engaging in this behavior.  We thought it was so cool that WE started to hold hands with each other.  I remember how liberating it felt to be able to express my deep connected friendship by holding hands and have no fear that anyone would view it as inappropriate.  Upon returning to the U.S. I remember a conversation with a friend of how sad it was that we can’t hold hands anymore.  This was a totally friendship based 100% non-sexual form of showing our feelings for each other but something that would NEVER happen in this country because everyone is so homophobic.  By making such a production of what society considers “inappropriate love” we condition OURSELVES to hesitate to express our own love…as mother daughter, father son, friend to friend.  THAT is a loss to ALL of us.  If you think it isn’t then you have never held the hand of a friend and if it makes you shudder to think of it, THAT is how conditioned you have become to society’s judgment.  And to not even be able to consider showing affection to someone you care about is just sad…for you.  Because I know the feeling of being able to fully express emotion and affection and it is liberating and beautiful.

But at the very heart of this issue is something much deeper than just affection and marriage vows.  Anyone can take vows…in front of God or otherwise.  It’s now 100% about those vows being recognized by the government…because along with a marriage license comes a recognition that now by law you are one.  If my husband was in an accident or dying I, as his wife, would be able to visit him in the hospital, to hold his hand, to share our last moments on this earth together.  I would also be able to assist in making decisions about his care and to carry out his wishes.  But NONE of that would be allowed if we were a gay couple. I could be with my partner for 50 years and at the end of their life a parent who disowned them could come back and make care decisions for them!  And worse, by LAW I would not even be recognized as family and could be denied access to even SEE my partner!!  Anyone who thinks that is fair…my god I can’t even fathom someone thinking that is OK!!  Especially not someone reading this who I have accepted into my life and called FRIEND!  I am begging you…pleading with you to see how inhumane this is.  When you rise up against the gay community you fill in all the gaps of love with hatred.  No one is denying your rights to your religion and to your beliefs.  They are only asking for the respect and dignity of being treated as an equal by the law.  Who are you to deny that to them? 

A very vivid memory of mine is my dear friend David and the day he told me he was gay. He said “I have something I need to tell you and when I do you will probably not want to be my friend anymore…” It breaks my heart that in his mind even for a second he wondered if my love and friendship could stand against the pressures of a society hell bent on destroying anyone who was admittedly gay.  I will remember that moment as long as I live.  I will also remember my response to him.  I told him I thought he was going to tell me something awful! I told him that I love and accept him exactly as he is and that my feelings for him have not and will not change.  I then hugged him. And over 20 years later we are still friends and I embrace him and all that he is every day.   What is so sad to me is thinking of ALL my gay friends and knowing that each and every one of them had that moment with me…where they faced me and wondered how they were going to tell me.  Where they took a deep breath and pushed the words from the very bottom of their souls and then waited as if their very breath was frozen, for my reply.  My reply has always been and will always be one of acceptance and love.  And I thank all of them for trusting me enough in that one moment to share with me all they truly are because your lives are all a value and blessing to my soul.  I stand up for you now in this moment.  And one day very soon, I will stand beside you when the walls of the bigots fragile kingdom come crashing down around them and history rights itself.  A day when we will finally be equals in the eyes of the law…Because we have ALWAYS been equals in my eyes AND the eyes of MY God.




122 comments:

  1. Holly this is great! I hope you get a lot of hits on this and bring some folks around to your way of looking at this and maybe even challenging their clergy and elected leaders who spew hate.

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    1. That would be so nice. I just hope I can bring some sort of different perspective to people who maybe just haven't thought much about it before. I don't hold out much hope of changing any of the minds of people with true hate in their souls. But I am convinced I don't have to convince everyone...just enough people to make a change.

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  2. Wow, thank you sooooo much for posting this. As a lesbian in a state that is voting in November on my ability to marry my partner of 21+ years, this means so much to me that you took the time to stand up and say this out loud. In deep gratitude.

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    1. Your post really touched me. I thought about it last night and its really poignant for me because my husband Jym and I have been together for 21+ years as well (this is our 21/13...21 years together and 13 married) and I hope so much that your state comes through for you and allows you to finally marry in the eyes of the law as it should be. Thanks so much for reading and taking the time to comment. I truly believe what I said is what so many people feel in their hearts and just haven't said yet. I wish you all the luck in November and in your beautiful marriage to be.

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  3. Amazing post, thank you so much for standing by your friends, and for putting into words what so many people who support the equal treatment of homosexual individuals and couples feel.

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    1. Thank you so much for reading and commenting! I hope I change someone's perspective.

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  4. Amazing write. Thank you and God bless you!

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    1. Thanks! I appreciate you reading it! I know its LONG...lol

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  5. Well said. If I may point something else out about point 1; Leviticus is the book everyone references to argue against gay marriage from a "Christian" point of view. Why place Christian in quotes? Not because the actions of the people making these arguments draws their Christianity into debate (not my call to make), but because Leviticus is a book of the Old Testament. My understanding of Christianity is the belief that God’s son, the Christ, was born on earth to die for the sins of the world, thus granting believers grace and forgiveness through Him, replacing previous rituals and means of gaining salvation. Hence, the New Testament. Christians are meant to follow the teachings of the New Testament, because Christianity itself is based on the changes Christ brought with him.

    So, if we accept that as our premise for Christianity, isn’t it REALLY sacrilegious for “Christians” to quote an Old Testament book as their basis for bigotry? If the New Testament is meant to supersede the Old Testament as a guidebook for Christians, how is it honoring Christ or the faith to continuously pick and choose specific interpretations of specific verses of a book that was purposely replaced (speaking only to Christians at this point, as the Old Testament is a current holy document for other faiths)? In essence, it’s like saying the changes Christ brought with him through his life, death, and resurrection simply aren’t valid when it comes to definitions of marriage. Christ can provide a new path to salvation, but not a new understanding or acceptance of love and coupling. How does that make any sense? Not a stand I would want to take against the God I’m professing to follow.

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    1. Very nice Gretchen! Well said and something I wasn't aware of. Thanks for the knowledge!

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  6. I also want to thank you. I worry about the young kids coming out.

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    1. So do I. There is so much suicide and challenges associated with coming out. It needs to be a kinder world of acceptance. Thanks for reading my blog!

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  7. If you want to post a comment to this blog I think you have to sign up for Google plus. Its easy and free and just needs basic info...name and email. I know a lot of people have been trying to comment and it won't accept the posts I think that is why. I hope that works because I love hearing your comments.

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  8. these are some of the smartest comments i have ever heard on the subject and i am not just saying that because i am in Love with the author.

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    1. I am so lucky to share my life with such an open-minded, loving, intelligent man and I am proud to wear your ring and be your wife. I hope our friends are given the same privilege one day.

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  9. BRILLIANT! I just shared it on my Facebook "Born This Way Blog" page:
    http://www.facebook.com/BornThisWayBlog
    http://www.BornThisWayBlog.com

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    1. That is awesome!! I Love your site...and I "liked" it too. Thanks so much.

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  10. You have eloquently put into words what I have been thinking but was unable to express....I am a heterosexual married Christian and find such pain in the hate that is coming from the people that call themselves "Christians"...I use that in quotes because I don't know how hate and Christianity can really go together. The ignorance of people that can have so much hate for others they don't even know is heartbreaking. Even worse that they justify it by saying God doesn't approve. I hope that many many people read this and take to heart your message. Thanks you so much for your words!

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    1. Thanks so much for YOUR words! It is so difficult to watch close friends of mine who call themselves Christians filled with so much hate and using their religion as a shield to defend it all. I have seen how devastating this is to my dear friends who are gay and I wanted so much to be a voice to let them know they are not alone in their fight. It is so refreshing to have so many positive comments! Thanks for taking the time to read and comment!! It means a lot to me.

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  11. Hello there. Interesting blog. Let me first say that I do not hate gays. I have two male cousins that have homosexual attraction- and I think they have also joined the 'gay' movement. Anyhow, as I recall growing up, both of their dads were always working- always away from home on long assignments. One dad was a reporter and the other owned a tire shop. Needless to say they were left at home with their nannies. Both of them did not have a father around. I've read quite a few non-mainstream books on attempting to understand homosexuality. It goes to follow- that when a boy is born, he gets attached to a nurturing mother- a bond is made between the two- but after 3 years or so..after having the nurturing of a mother, the boy then attaches to the father- and when the dad is around to nurture this, the boy's gender identity becomes confirmed and he imprints initially as a male. He then grows up with both stages completed psychologically and becomes heterosexual. If and when the Dad was never there to nurture or downright mean, the boy clings to the femininity of the mother and then has this hollow part of him that longs for his dads masculinity. When he grows up, it is not his fault that- he longs for that masculinity- but this time- its different. He confuses that to the attraction of the same sex.(by the way, the female version is a bit more complicated) So the homosexual, in order to feel natural- can only make sense of things by trying to cannibalize on the same sex. Homosexuality is due to a depraved psychological stage in a young boy's life. This proves- that Fathers need to be around from the very beginning and should nurture the boy well into adulthood.

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    1. Seriously? Lets hear the more complex Lesbian explanation. My sister are both Homosexual and Gay and come from the same family.

      Are you suggesting masculinity camp for all sons of single moms?

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    2. I have numerous friends who are both gay and lesbian and all have come from intact, often Christian, households. Complete with a loving mom and dad. In fact none of my gay friends have grown up without either of their parents. Unless you count the time AFTER they came out as gay when they might have been temporarily estranged from a parent due to discrimination. On the other hand I do have friends who were ignored by their parents growing up or grew up in a single parent home some without contact at all of their other parent and none of them are gay. So I think your theory is pretty much out the window.

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    3. Hello. Yes, the human person is so fragile and complex that the hard part is where and when this thing occurs, the gender identification. There are so many factors that affect all of us. This seems to be pattern, perhaps it depends on the child. There is no pinpointing to a single cause- but I think if we approach it from that standpoint- which the 'gay agenda' wouldn't give a chance to see. Now, kids that grow up with a single Mom- the masculinity might have been met with an older brother- uncles, someone- that the boy Identifies with..It is nothing like a dad and like I said, each person is different. The crucial point of the boy's identifying himself might be so short of a time, that even the Dad becomes supportive later on..and they all live happily ever after is not the point..it is a developmental anomaly and one that should be addressed. Consequently, the gay agenda is pushing to ban any 'reparative therapy for homosexuals that want to be cured.

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    4. Your argument makes a few assumptions that are not necessarily shared by everyone. First and foremost, that homosexuality is a choice. I understand what you're saying is that it's internalized early through lack of a father figure, but that would still make it, however unconscious, a choice rather than an inborn trait. Personally, I do not believe homosexuality is a choice. I do not believe it can be influenced by childhood experience, family relationships, or any other life experience. It isn't contracted like a virus, therefore there is no such thing as (or need for) a cure. It's an inborn trait, like eye color or blood type. For evidence that homosexuality is natural, look to nature. Many species beyond humans exhibit homosexual behavior. Unless you want to argue that dragon flies, lions, and even cattle often exhibit homosexual behavior due to lack of strong male role models, the argument for choice is largely invalid.

      Secondly, you've confused some terminology. Sex and gender are not the same thing, and the difference is very important to the argument you're making. Sex is biological and ONLY distinguishes someone as male or female. Gender is socially constructed and changes based on culture, time period, and ideology. Gender is not defined as male or female, but rather masculine and feminine. A man can be masculine or feminine. A female can be masculine or feminine. THIS IS NOT DIRECTLY TIED TO SEXUAL ORIENTATION. For example, I work out outside of my home, I've earned a post-secondary degree, I am outspoken and I prefer mechanical work to house work. In our culture, these are traditionally masculine traits, yet I am biologically female and quite happily in a heterosexual relationship. So, because I tend to be a masculine female, will my son have a lower chance of being homosexual? That argument simply doesn't make sense. Is my son more likely to be heterosexual because his father is active in his life and his mother has more traditionally masculine traits than feminine ones? On the inverse, if I had a daughter, would she become a lesbian because I lack the "proper" feminine qualities as dictated by the culture in which I live? I'm not demure, I don't like flowers, and I don't believe in holding my tongue. I also do not believe any of that will influence the sexual orientation of my son or any other children I may have in the future. They will be heterosexual or homosexual based on whatever innate factor decides these things, and I will love them either way, because as long as they are happy, productive members of society, it doesn't matter.

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    5. I would very much like to read the study where this information about early childhood experience and its impact on gender identity was published. I know you reference your own family experience, but you also say "This proves- that Fathers need to be around from the very beginning and should nurture the boy well into adulthood." In order for something to be proven, it must first be tested, observed, analyzed, refined, and retested. You know, the standard scientific method. So, that leads me to believe you are using your own family experience to elucidate upon an argument you've heard someone else make. Otherwise, you're arguing that something can be "proven" from one person's experience and observation, and I'm going to give you more credit than that.

      So, is the original article featured in a peer reviewed journal? Do you have a link to the publication? Are the authors of the study well known in the field? I spent a good deal of graduate school studying gender, identity, and sexuality, but as of my graduation, I hadn't read any studies that were able to prove any link between life experience and homosexuality. Too many external influences to make a one-for-one correlation because humans are such complex creatures. I imagine concrete findings in this areas would have significant implications for numerous fields of study.

      Or is this argument a paraphrased sermon? Because if that is the case, you are using scientific language to make a religious argument.

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    6. hello. fair enough. Let me just say that I am impressed that I havent been labeled a 'hater' or a 'bigot' in this blog. Awesome. That means we can share ideas, agree or disagree- and no ad hominems. Here is a good website. This one in particular is sort of a sexuality 101. Please check it out. http://narth.com/docs/hom101.html Tons of information here.

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    7. I believe strongly that change in people's minds never comes from name calling...only an open dialogue and intelligent exchange of ideas. I am glad that everyone is being respectful of my wishes on that.

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    8. Name calling shuts down dialogue. It's a shame much of our political system revolves around it at this point. I enjoy hearing other people's perspectives, even if I don't necessarily agree. You never know when you'll happen across some information that changes your perspective.

      Thank you for the link. I will check it out when I have time to fully peruse the site. Right now I have an infant ready for his late night feeding and bedtime story. G'night all.

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    9. there is a common trait among ophans or adopted kids from despicable situations where food is always scarce- that when they grow up, they have a tendency to gorge themselves or gather food outside the natural sense- because it is an adaptation they've grown into- because of that need crisis. This is similar to homosexuality- the psychological bonding was not met- hence the attraction outside of the normal natural sense.

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    10. the most upsetting thing about this comment string is that I thought I was arguing with someone with an actual opinion, but it turns out that he only has other peoples opinion.(insert sad clown face)

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  12. There is this arguement that says... If you look at the animal species, there are many homosexual activities within the animal kingdom. One could certainly entertain this notion, but since when did human civilations look for morality from the animals themselves. We could possibly emulate their prowess as a hunter ie, Kungfu styles...but how to act?..after all animals eat their young as well.

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    1. I'm bothered by the fact that you reference morality. What is moral to you might not be to someone else. Again, your beliefs are your own and all I am saying is that they shouldn't be forced on others. If you believe being gay is immoral then it is your right to believe that. I do not believe that. In regards to the animal species reference I believe what people are saying is that animals are not held to moral standards so they behave naturally and the fact that animals do not CHOOSE their behavior so much as act completely on instinct demonstrates that it is possible that gay tendencies are completely biological in nature. They are NOT saying we should emulate animals or look to them for morality. They are just using it as a raw form of evidence of a biological connection. I personally believe that we are all on a continuum with some people being 100% straight and some people being 100% gay and the rest of us fall somewhere in between. I believe it is all 100% biology. But again it does not matter what I believe or what you believe. This is about the law and not religion or morality. It is about finding equality in the law.

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  13. on "Gays are not Christians", I would like to say that being Gay is a homosexual that makes an announcement that he is Gay, rather in a coming out- political sentiment. Theres a distinction, a homosexual may or may not be Gay. Let me explain. There is a group of homosexuals that by choice decidedly are chaste and live according to what they believe is a moral way to live. The group I think is called "Courage". When a homosexual wants to act on his attraction- and comes out, that is when he becomes Gay. Back to the 'christian' aspect. By definition, a Christian is someone who believes in the trinity- and believes that Jesus came down, died on the cross to redeem the world- that is for all people, homosexuals included.

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    1. i think someone must have forwarded your article to a cool priest. to that last one it would seem to me that the Christian courage group are denying who they are because of the way they were raised or believe which is a shame and this should still be a mute point when it comes to the issue of equal rights.

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    2. To me the "Courage" group should be proof positive that being gay is NOT a choice. Why would these people not just CHOOSE to be a normal part of society? They recognize that they cannot change how they were born they are only and simply choosing not to act on it. Which to me is just sad. They are sacrificing happiness just because they are not to be accepted as they are within the bounds of their religion! If they are so religious and believe that being gay is wrong why can't they just CHOOSE to be straight...problem solved! They can't choose it because it isn't a CHOICE. I fully again will say I respect the group's right to honor what their beliefs are but it is SAD to me that they will live a life and never be able to experience who they are totally and fully. It is even sadder that they feel this is a flaw and some moral evil that is inside them. It is sad that our society makes them feel they are somehow broken.

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  14. I enjoy reading anything you write whether it be on here, Facebook, email, etc. You and I have the same points of views on pretty much everything.

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  15. On being forced on others, If you search for a case where a Lesbian Couple wanted to adopt a child- they went to a catholic adoption agency that's been around for over 200 years. Well, the catholic adoption agency did not approve of the lesbian couple to adopt based on its moral principles. The 'couple' got legislation involved and the courts said that the catholic agency must adhere to what the couple wanted. The catholic agency which could not go against its moral principle and although financially tipping was forced to close its operation. Why couldn't the lesbian couple go somewhere else? I just want you guys to realize who is forcing what on others.

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    1. I do not know the details of the case. Perhaps there was a valid reason the lesbian couple went to the Catholic adoption agency. Or, perhaps they were simply trying to "stick it" to a religious organization. If that's the case, fine. I agree with you their motives were lacking (again, I don't know because I don't know the case you're referencing or all the details involved). But holding one couple who may have had poor reasoning up as an example of an entire group of people is wrong. That's like saying "a catholic guy in my town robbed a convenience store, so all catholics must be thieves." It's not only untrue, it's offensive. Pardon the language, but jackasses exist in EVERY group of people, but the jackasses shouldn't define the entire group.

      Also, using an example of one group to prove a point about all lesbains/homosexuals is like saying racism doesn't exist anymore because we have an African American president. No, there's still racism. And as long as rules and rights that apply to "everyone" do not extend to homosexuals, as long a heterosexuality is considered normal and homosexuals are deviant (the term for this is heteronormativity), as long as gays have to "come out" because people in our culture simply believe everyone is straight until they publically state otherwise, gays are not in a position to force anything on the dominant heteronormative cultural ideology.

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    2. another example. A book by Dale O'Leary titled "Gender Agenda" chronicles the gay movement forcing the hand of the United Nations to accept a new sex education in which it teaches children how to masturbate, that it is OK, and a big emphasis on same sex activities- then this sex education package is soon going to be distributed to the elementary school systems. Whether you are a christian or any other religion, your children will be taught this. Who's forcing who's view point to others. Frankly, I tell my kids teachers- let me know when that lesson is being taught and my kids will have a family field trip to the zoo.

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    3. There are 2 MAJOR problems with this argument the knock its legitimacy right from the start.

      First, how is masturbation connected to homosexuality? That’s absolutely ridiculous. Men, women, straight, gay, and all shades in between masturbate. Have you ever been around teenage boys? College dorms? Lonely 20-somethings? The recent flock of middle aged women buying “50 Shades of Gray”? Do you think massaging shower heads are actually used for cleanliness? Let’s be serious adults. No one reads Playboy for the articles, or watches “Magic Mike” for the storyline. Masturbation is NOT a homosexual trait. It’s a human trait and, if you want to get down to it, the only truly “safe” form of sex, because you’re doing it to yourself. No chance of pregnancy or disease. Masturbation isn’t natural? What could be more natural than exploring one’s own body? If you’re going to “take your kids to the zoo” instead of risking the chance they may hear about masturbation, avoid the primate exhibits. Those pesky primates tend to masturbate quite a bit!

      Second, the United Nations doesn’t set the American school curriculum. Not even close. While I’m assuming the “schools are going to teach our kids to masturbate” theory is exaggerated beyond all recognition because of the blatant fallacies posted, I would welcome a rounded sexual education curriculum to the abstinence only education currently offered in many schools. Because if we just don’t teach kids about sex, they won’t have it. Riiiight. Look how well that’s working out. This isn’t an argument, it’s a fear tactic. Hit people where they care most (their kids) and wait for them to change their opinion out of fear. Straw man tactics don’t work on me.

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  16. there are probably a great number of reasons why they didn't go anywhere else that have nothing to do with the gay agenda. i looked up a number of instances where gay couples were trying to adopt. most of the stories were about how these organizations are claiming the agenda is to get them to compromise their beliefs. this is not the case. this is what the organizations claim so they can continue to discriminate. adoption in this country is messed up enough without the discrimination of people for sexual orientation which has no bearing on the quality of Love and support that can be provided.i also read a number of arguments about the funding. these reports claimed that people stopped funding because they didn't want adoptions to gay couples. or that they refused funding from the gov because they didn't agree to being forced by the government to not discriminate.then they cry cause they closed. blaming a gay "agenda". the only agenda is for equality.

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  17. From the 'evolution' standpoint, wouldn't you think nature has designed male and female so that the species can reproduce- and that the natural outcome are offsprings to keep the species alive and well. If anything, nature finds a way to make things work- male and female for a natural purpose. Anything else would be a deviation. no?

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    1. Valid argument. Species do have a biological imperitive to procreate. If not, they'd die out. Discounting pollution, over hunting/fishing, and destruction of natural habitat, though, there are examples in history of species going extinct without human interference. I'm not in any way saying homosexuality is a natural human movement towards extinction, simply that there are examples where the biological thrust towards survival has been trumped. Traits that don't necessarily support procreation and species sustainment are furthered. I'm not well versed in zoology, so I'm afriad I can't provide specific examples.

      In addition to the urge to procreate, though, nature also loves balance. If any one species becomes prevalent to the point where it threatens the balance of an ecosystem, nature will try to correct the inbalance. Homosexual traits have been observed in many species (mammals, reptiles, insects, birds, and fish), but let's look at the human population. Life expectancies are increasing. We're constantly developing new medications to combat and abolish diseases that only decades ago would have meant a death sentence. This progress is wonderful from a personal standpoint, but the result is that there are now more people on this planet than food resources. Perhaps (and this is a HUGE perhaps that I have no scientific backing to support, it's just for the sake of argument) homosexuality is one evolutionary factor meant to help support a balanced ecosystem. Granted, homosexual human couples have many options at their disposal if they wish to extend their family (surrogates, adoption, etc.), but perhaps the homosexual trait in all species is there to keep a species population in check? I don't know and it's hard to speak about humans in an evolutionary sense, because we act according to reasoning and emotion instead of base instinct.

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    2. Gretchen I love your thought process on this! Its something I hadn't considered and actually makes a lot of sense! It is a refreshing scientific perspective. My comments although not as eloquent as Gretchen's would be simply that nature has biological anomalies. There are men and women both who for whatever reason are unable to procreate. No one chastises them for being infertile or making the choice to not have children. Science aside and using only common sense on this one, does that mean if I am born infertile then I am a "deviation from nature" and should not be allowed to marry? Or that my uses on this planet would be non-existent? First of all our human race is certainly not in any danger of dying out. In fact we are indeed overpopulated. This also assumes that we only exist on this planet to procreate. Human beings were created with processes that animals were not. We think, we feel, we love, we create. Unlike most animals we do not exist to simply procreate and die. We are not defined as humans by how many children we have. I am allowed to choose to not have any children. That doesn't limit my ability to contribute to society. Maybe we as humans were created to all be unique and different and to complement each other. To bring things to the table that others don't. Maybe that was God's intention. Maybe that is nature's intention. The truth is that we are all guessing. What I am sure of is that I hesitate to ever call any human being a deviation. Wouldn't all of us in some way be a deviation of some sort from the perfect norm? I personally try to embrace people's differences and the God I believe in would too. He would never consider any of his creations as a "deviation". He would see each person as a unique new perfection.

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    3. So many points-to discuss. First of all you mentioned overpopulation. Overpopulation is a myth. The most popular notion that we will run out of food, that the world will be overpopulated is a myth. Check out this vid. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZVOU5bfHrM. Many buy the Malthusian theory- including China, hence the one child law. This is not a good counter-rebuttal on disregarding the need to pro-create. We have so much food in the world, if we had the means to distribute them...oh boy. Also, no one says just because you can't procreate makes you less than a person to contribute to society. On the notion that we are not simply to procreate and die- I agree, that we must understand the world around us and not go against nature. As crude and graphic as it may be, a man's genital inserted in another man's anal cavity- is hardly natural. There I said it.

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    4. Oh boy . how did this turn into a discussion on sex and is it natural? Even if through these arguments you were to convince me that this is unnatural then I would still believe that in this country you should still have the choice. Just because we are biologically engineered for male/female sex does not mean that we are neurologically engineered for only male/female sex or love or even wanting to hang out with each other. a good marriage is a combination of all these things and if a couple of the same sex find this then they should be allowed to be together legally, to marry legally, to make decisions, and legally raise children. this isn't hurting anyone and as my wife stated over and over, you are entitled to your opinion. Just because you believe something is unnatural doesn't in and of itself make it an unnatural act. and I believe that men have been slipping it out and trying to stuff it in the other hole since the caveman days. There I said it.

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    5. You can find a video or article to support any cockamamy theory you have. That doesn't make it a fact. You are not proving anything and it is showing your complete ignorance. Since you brought up sex I will say first of all that I am not going to even engage with you in any sexual talk but i will say that it is YOU who is saying it is not "natural". It might very well be perfectly "natural"! Just because something is not accepted in society or your religion does NOT mean it is not natural. I can also assure you that being gay or straight is NOT all about sex. Is your marriage all about sex? If it is that is sad. because my marriage is SO much more. A marriage or partnership is about mutual respect, 2 people sharing one life in every way. For you to even bring up the intimacy that occurs between 2 consenting adults in the privacy of their own home just shows that you don't have any real facts to present on the matter and starting to show us all what you are really about...What is bothering YOU is that it is against what you believe. So you are desperate to find a scientific basis for your bigotry...there now I said it!

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    6. Overpopulation is a myth? I’m sorry, I laughed so hard at that assertion my coworker asked me if I was choking. I could go into the facts, but there is obviously no point. Catholic411, you and I are not speaking the same language here. You’re using the language of science and academia, you speak about things being “proven” and mention “theories” and “myth,” but the more I read your comments, the more I see the sources you cite, it’s obvious your arguments are based on religious rhetoric only. Throwing around scientific terms does not a scientific argument make. Appealing to tradition as evidence of anything is a logical fallacy. We may both speak English, but the arguments you make all originate from your understanding of your own morals. You must understand that not everyone has the same morals, or even defines morals the same way. Even within the same faith, same church, same family, you will find people with different moral codes and definitions. It’s fine to live your life by your own set of morals, but you can’t expect to debate any issue on morals alone and be taken seriously. They are too subjective, there is no set starting place for debate to ensue. You also can’t honestly argue for a form of government that legislates based on morals, because what happens when the prevailing norm has a different moral code than you?

      I will make one comment on the population. When the Bible says “go forth and multiply,” it’s an Old Testament passage delivered to the Hebrew people. Why is that an important distinction to make? 1) Because the Old Testament is not the guide book for Christians. The New Testament is. 2) At the time that passage was written, the Hebrew people were small in number and surrounded by many hostile groups who served different gods/goddesses. If the Hebrew people did not multiply, spreading their genes and faith on to the next generations, they could have died out. That’s not really a problem in modern day America.

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  18. for some reason that i am sure is my fault, i am not seeing all the posts. so Holly is trading them out loud. T hanks GRETCHEN for so eloquently expressing what Holly and i were struggling to say.

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    1. Aw, thank you, Jym. I think you and Holly have been expressing yourselves quite well, though. You don't give yourselves enough credit. :)

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  19. CATHOLIC, you have gone to far! I have never once wanted to support NAMBLA as part of marriage equality. But since you brought it up, maybe we can petition congress to let me marry my same sex kitty too. HE is AWESOME! LMAO!

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  20. I absolutely have to agree with David. You have most certainly gone too far! I have allowed the banter to continue (Catholic) because although often your rants are nothing more than paraphrasing or pulling almost useless or pointless facts that have NOTHING to do with my original discussion, I am drawing the line with you in any way comparing the behavior of 2 consenting adults to people who believe in having sex with CHILDREN!! You are crossing the line.

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  21. You can't cite the deviant behavior of individuals or groups as being the justification for a ban. It just doesn't work as an argument if you take into account the heinous acts committed against women and children that are heterosexual in nature.

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  22. I apologize if I offended any of you. But if you redefine marriage- it will come to this. The definition of marriage is a union between a man and a woman. The problem is when the definition is change to anywhere from a union between two consenting entities (by the way this is whats is happening, gender is not important) then yes..perhas a man and a dolphin, a man and a cat, three guys, two guys and a gal..that is the repercussion of redefining man and woman.

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    1. Marriage is between a man and a woman? Ok. I won’t argue past definitions of marriage. What I want to know is what makes someone man or woman? I want to know your answer, because if you say genitals, then I want to remind you genitals are secondary sexual characteristics. At the level of chromosomes, women have an XX chromosome pattern and men have an XY chromosome pattern. That does not mean, however, that all XY chromosomal males develop male genitalia. In some cases, they do not. If the SRY gene on the Y chromosome does not function properly, a XY chromosomal male will have female secondary sexual characteristics (genitals). So tell me, then, what makes someone man or woman? Is it chromosomes, genitals, or something else entirely? Added to that, what then makes someone gay? I don’t want to hear the nonsense about people are only gay when they declare themselves homosexual, because that’s not what I’m talking about. On the level of biology, what makes someone homosexual? If an XY chromosomal male has a malfunctioning SRY gene that leads “him” to develop female genitals instead of male genitals, is that person male or female? Chromosomally, he’s male. Physically, “he” has female characteristics. So, should “he” only engage in sexual acts with females, even though “he” has female genitals? Or would that make “him” a lesbian? Tell me what scripture says on that. What scripture says about the genetic anomalies and the people who don’t fit into neat boxes of cultural definement. In 30 years, I haven’t been able to find it. And no, I’m not a heathen trying to twist scripture to fit my “liberal, gay agenda.” I was raised Mennonite. I was baptized into the Mennonite church. You can’t get much more fundamentalist than that. I am very aware of the Bible and its teachings. I’m also educated. The two are not mutually exclusive.

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  23. I would be fascinated to know the cited references behind the claim that a badgering gay agenda removed homosexuality from anything. I would be further interested to know the size, background, and (yes) agenda of this group trying to have it relisted as a disorder. These same arguments have been used over and over for everything from lefthandedness to interracial marriage. These arguments are going to be on the losing side of another Loving v. Virgina and pass into history books as a footnote of ignorance.

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  24. As far as the "redefinition" of marriage, anyone want to take a trip thru the Bible or thru US history looking at the various states of marriage and its requirements? It's really fascinating.

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    1. i do. is there an app for that?

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    2. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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    3. It was just a double post. I wasn't censoring my own husband...lol

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  25. When the John Jay Criminal Study showed that a solid greater than 80% of those 3% of the entire priesthood had molested post-pubescent boys, the conclusion they should arrive at was that it was not mainly a pedophilia problem in the priesthood but a homosexual one. In a book titled "Goodbye, goodmen, chronicles the rampant refusal of real men joining the priesthood but welcomes the sexual deviants-in the seminaries. I just read a lot of books folks...the mainstream wont touch this.

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    1. and therefore gays shouldn't have the rights of what your religion deems as normal? Priests are not pedophiles because they are gay.

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    2. Why is it when an adult man forces himself onto a boy it's called a homosexual act & not just pedophilia? If a adult man forces himself onto a little girl it's not called heterosexual.
      Catholic is just looking for accuses instead of telling the truth. Catholic doesn't understand homosexaulity. Just FYI it's 2 consenting adults having sexaul relations. An adult forcing themselves onto a child isn't consenting.

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    3. Bravo (ricanfrompa & James)I agree 100%! The priests having sex with male parishioners is not the problem (except to your religion...I know pastors who have heterosexual sex with members of their congregations. The issue you have is that it would be gay sex) It's that they are having sex with CHILDREN...non-consenting CHILDREN. Being homosexual does not make you attracted to any male/female you can get (i.e. even children) That theory is absurd. You are comparing (as I said in response to your NAMBLA post) sex between consensual adults with sex with children. It is NOT the same thing. Just because YOU feel that they are both deviant behaviors does not make them the same and does NOT make you right. Mainstream won't touch your theory because its absurd.

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    4. The john jay criminal study shows data- that the sexual abuse crisis in the church, that 80% are post pubescent boys. By definition, this is not pedophilia- The study also found out, that in protestant and non-christian churches, the rate of abuse is 10x. Whats even alarming is that in public schools, the rate is 100x. You guys can read the report yourselves. You can all pat yourselves and assure each other you are right..but read the report. Ricanfrompa says that homosexuality is "2 consenting adults having sexaul relations"- what if they arent homosexuals..you confuse me. James, priests are pedophiles if they molest children, if priest molest post pubescent boys- it is homosexual act- by homosexual priests.

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    5. NON-CONSENSUAL sex between ANYONE and ANYONE is criminal. What ricanfrompa is saying is that what we are talking about here when referencing homosexuality is 2 consulting males or 2 consulting females. It is NOT about force. You are trying to justify what a priest (someone in a position of supposed respect and authority) is doing to someone in his care to prove your point and it is just absurd. AGAIN I will say it although apparently you aren't listening...you cannot compare consensual sex with forced rape. If I was a woman and my pastor was a male and he forced himself on me either physically or by using his position as mental coercion then that is rape. It is still heterosexual behavior but it is RAPE. Likewise what your priests are doing is RAPE...it doesn't matter who they are doing it to. You are splitting hairs in a sad, desperate and sick attempt to justify your position.

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  26. further more, if you keep reading past the fox news article at the top of a google search for"homosexually in Afghanistan" you will see that there is no comparisons that can be made in our country. the impositions of a culture on its people in the name of achieving higher morality as dictated by its religion has actually created the more deviant behavior.

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  27. As we were growing up, I think I always knew my stepbrother was gay. I should mention that my mother and stepfather married when we were young and before that, my stepfather had full custody of my brother, Eric (to debunk what (catholic) said from his first post). My brother has never had a serious relationship, but knows that he would be accepted and supported in our family and our church if he did. The other day, my nine year old daughter asked why Uncle Eric never got married to an aunt like her other uncles. My husband hardly skipped a beat and told her that her uncle is gay and sometimes men don't have girlfriends, but boyfriends instead. She looked at him without shock or surprise and said, "Oh, you mean like Kurt and Blane on Glee?" We simply said "yes" and moved on with the rest of our dinner conversation. What I loved about this was...it was not a big deal to her! We are raising her to be accepting of all people, beliefs, faiths, etc... and hopefully by planting that seed now, she will continue that as an adult and she will treat all people with respect.


    I do hope that if my stepbrother someday comes to us with the love of his life, man or woman, he will have the choice to marry that person and I will be right beside him celebrating with them!

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    1. That is absolutely a beautiful story Heidi. More people should as open minded as you when raising their children. It is so nice to know your daughter will be a bright light in the darkness of hatred in this world. I hope someday you get the honor of standing by your brother's side when he gets to say his vows to someone he loves. Thank you for sharing your story. It was very uplifting.

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    2. This is a lovely story. I'm amazed at how accepting children are. One of my favorite quotes of Dennis Leary is "Racism isn’t born, folks, It’s taught. I have a two year old son. Want to know what he hates? Naps. End of list.” I think the same can be said of homophobia. Children learn to hate when it is taught to them. Fortunately, the inverse is also true. Your daughter is very lucky to have such loving, open-minded parents.

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  28. That is a touching story, but emotions aside and suggesting that the truth is all about darkness and hatred won't get anywhere. When the media plugs and plugs and plugs the agenda like modern family and like what you mentioned, glee- it simply covers up what is the matter of things and beams a colored light to make it palatable to the world. theres a new show called the new normal. Somehow, they all seem to be justifying something terribly wrong- ..we will continue to fight for our causes. There are many homosexuals- that will realize there is a reparative therapy out there, there will be homosexuals that will embrace the 'gay' choice-...in the end we are all the same, we have some disorders one way or the other. emotions aside-, nice stories aside...there is a naturalness in this world- part evolution, part common sense, part accepting the truth, part longing for the truth.

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    1. It is YOUR truth NOT mine. It is "terribly wrong" to YOU, NOT me. Modern Family and Glee are more like the world SHOULD be. You are what is wrong with Christianity. You are why I cannot even stomach being in a church anymore. The constant judgmental self-righteous hatred set behind the shield of your religion disgusts me. It shocks me you mention evolution. Because you are FAR from evolved. Way back in one of your original posts you (although not your thoughts and merely stolen from someone's website) you mention that this is not a choice because it is something that happened to someone so early in their childhood that they cannot even remember or connect the event but it makes them THINK they were born that way. Well if that is true then why would you condemn them? It doesn't matter HOW someone came to be gay or when that occurred. What matters is that BY LAW ALL HUMAN BEINGS ARE CREATED EQUAL. You DO NOT have the right to deny them BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS...You know what I think is really bothering you and making your posts increasingly more desperate? The fact that EVERY SINGLE POST on this blog, people I don't even know, share MY belief NOT yours. And most of them (from what I have been told or can tell) are HETEROSEXUAL CHRISTIANS. Feel the walls closing in much? Oh don't worry your hatred and bigotry will always exist...just like there are still groups against women and blacks but the sounds of their hatred are drown out by the sounds of rational loving human beings who recognize everyone deserves to be treated like a HUMAN. Welcome to the new world my friend...Sorry you are too close-minded to be a part of it. Because it is a beautiful world!!

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    2. The media has only 1 agenda and that is to make money, and guess what, dude? The majority of consumers who watch tv have evolved their thinking towards acceptance. I feel i wasn't being clear enough earlier so I will be more concise. Do you believe people should be denied rights because they are gay? sincerely, the white elephant.

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    3. WELL SAID, YOUR TRUTH, NOT MINE!

      While my denomination has not embraced gay marriage they are not condemning me to hell every Sunday. I'm so lucky to have been raised in my church. In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, love. AMEN!

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  29. Holly, if I was not respecting your wishes for a respectful blog my language following this sentence would be much much different. Feel free to delete if it is still too offensive.

    Frankly Catholic, You are what is wrong with our society, if not our race. You are nothing more than a modern day bigot and a donkey... AKA jack @$$.

    Thank GOD that there are many more open and tolerable folks in the world these days. May GOD bless you and not judge you as you have judged others (hmmm... a lil old testament).

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  30. its really funny- and always consistent- that when you have a different viewpoint, you see the pretentious 'nice' crowd engage you and it doesn't take that long that they call you a jackass, a bigot, and intolerant. One must note that when arguments are presented to you, if you engage in ad hominem- that you've got nothing to say in the fray-. Where is the tolerance? If ideas and words hurt you so bad, then there is something inside that is deeply disordered. I haven't even used the scriptures for the arguments and choose not to debunk the overly used referenced part of the Sermon at the Mount. When is a train the fastest? Of course when it is on the track, the right track. By the way, that verse is in Matthew 7:1- I'm afraid that in the New Testament, you know the gospels..Mathew, Mark John and Luke.

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    1. People have had plenty to say in the fight. You just aren't really interested in facts or discussion. You ignore direct responses to your posts as I am sure you have no real comeback and when you do post it gets more and more off track and bizarre. (which is ironic that you think YOU are the train on the right track) You ask where is the tolerance? I ask YOU where is the tolerance?? The whole reason we are discussing any of this is because you have no tolerance. You say "if ideas and words hurt you so bad...there is something inside you that is deeply disordered." Well to that I say that the words you are using hurt people because they are born of your hatred. I also believe that YOU are the one who is deeply disordered to think that people who are being shunned and treated like second class citizens would not be allowed to have feelings of hurt over that. As far as presenting facts that is what I did in my original blog which you are replying incessantly to. Plenty of people have commented and provided even more facts. There is also a reference up there to what I think about you quoting bible verses (refer to argument #1), but you are certainly in your bounds to do so. Although I think you are well aware of what the outcome will be in that scenario.

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    2. I haven't, to my knowledge, engaged in any ad hominem attack. I've done my best to address every argument I saw with which I disagreed, and offer reasoning to back up my disagreement. Words and ideas do not hurt me. I'm not even slightly angry. If my tone has been sarcastic in places, it is because I tend to sarcasm.

      I won't call you a bigot, or a jackass, or intolerant. It is not my place to assign labels to you, it is your own actions that will dictate the labels people associate you with. You may want to be careful throwing around the label pretentious, though, because this post itself is quite pretentious. From her original blog post, Holly made it clear she's familiar with scripture. I would hope at this point it is abundantly clear I’m familiar with scripture. In the overall argument, that doesn’t matter. The U.S. is meant to have a separation of church and state. So, if the only argument that can be built against homosexual marriage is a Christian argument based on the Bible, it is simply not relevant to a legislative debate. Case closed. Gay couples of the U.S., start planning your undoubtedly fabulous weddings!

      On a personal front, though, if you are Christian the Biblical argument does matter. I am a Christian. I support gay marriage. I do not feel that doing so in any way goes against my faith. A very wise minister once told me, and I paraphrase it poorly here: “There are two testaments of God: His Word and His works. His Word is the Bible, an ancient document recorded by men, translated and handed down through the ages. His works are the very world around us. If His Word and His works ever disagree, you are reading one of them incorrectly.” I see a magnificent and elaborate world that sustains life in all its wonderful variety. Homosexuality is a part of that life and its variety. I can choose to accept that homosexuality is one more variation of the human experience that God created and continue to love and take joy in His creation, or I can hold to man’s interpretation of God’s Word as written by man, and spend my time hating and casting judgment. I choose to love and to celebrate with those fortunate enough to find love, whether it is heterosexual or homosexual.

      And with that, I think I’ve said just about everything I have to say on this subject. Holly, I look forward to your next blog post :)

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    3. That is beautifully said and eloquently expressed Gretchen. I love that quote about the word and the works. Just perfect.

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    4. I agree with Holly, beautifully said and eloquently expressed by Gretchen.

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  31. I am still trying to communicate politely. Why won't you reply to the counter arguments from the people who are being polite. Please go back and try to subjectively reread the initial blog. this is about treating people equally.

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  32. Force = rape. Meaning it's not consenting.

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  33. Of course Oscar Wilde called his homosexuality his pathology, that was the language and terminology of the time. He could only speak using the language he knew, not the language we use all these years later. Language is constantly in flux. He was brilliant, but not quite brilliant enough to predict changes that would occur to the English language after his death. Want to know what else used to be a pathology? Hysteria. There was a time when learned people actually thought the cause of female angst (called hysteria) was that the uterus would just up and wander about the body. Go look it up. When we learn more, we correct the inaccurate assumptions of the past.

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  34. As for the man-boy love argument, is this really where you’re stooping? Are you going to argue that if gays marry, the next step is man-boy marriage, followed inevitably by humans marrying dogs? C’mon, Catholic411, I’m disappointed. The man-boy love argument is scrapping the bottom of the barrel. I’m not even going to bother getting offended, because I can’t believe you or any other logical, intelligent adult would argue that as a real belief. It’s another one of those fear tactic arguments, made of out desperation and/or to make a point and hopefully bait others into losing their tempers and making an emotional response so you can cry foul. Any adult (male or female) having a sexual relationship with any child (male or female) is rape. That’s something the Catholic Church specifically knows all too well at this point. Consent is the key, and everyone speaking out in favor of gay marriage on this blog is assuming the topic of debate is staying focused on two CONSENTING adults. If you want to debate with me about gay marriage, fine. I’m more than up for it. But leave the ridiculous straw man arguments out of it. You can’t bait me into losing my temper. All these kinds of arguments accomplish is making me lose faith in your ability to hold a reasoned, rational argument.

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  35. The idea that we should all be inclusive. Suppose in the set of all homosexuals- some are Gay, in that they choose the lifestyle-, and others who realize they have a pathology and do not act on the same sex attraction. If the idea of live and let live- shouldn't we let both subsets be what they want to be?. I think, the first set cannot afford for the other subset to exist because the very existence of homosexuals that know and think that their psychological deficit is causing the disorder proves that you have a choice- a moral choice or the 'gay' choice. Shouldn't we be inclusive. Some choose to be chaste and some well- enjoy being gay? Think about it.

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  36. When a professional golfer swings his club- he has earned the right to play that game because he has the right equipment, all the training to be one. A golfer is not a true golfer- if he is using a baseball bat for a club on a tennis ball. The definition of marriage is equal to all people-but it has to have the right equipment, via a man and a woman.

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  37. Gretchen, how do you know that your wise minister's interpretation of the bible and yours as well is the correct interpretation? There are over 33,000 protestant denominations out there- which one is the correct one? I'm curious- because if one church member disagrees with his/her pastor- they make a new church with new interpretations. How do you know? By what authority?. By the way, the ad hominem- was not from all of you- it was from David- if you read his post.

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    1. EXACTLY THE POINT I HAVE BEEN MAKING SINCE I STARTED THIS BLOG!!! By what authority do YOU know EVERYTHING? Which is the correct religion or even the correct denomination in your own CHOSEN religion? How do YOU Know??? You don't. So stop trying to control people's lives based on your own beliefs! WHEN gay marriage becomes legal it will change your life and your beliefs in NO WAY. Your life will be affected in NO WAY. Everyone gets to believe what they want to, go to the church they want to, praise whatever God they deem proper but they do NOT get to impose it on others.

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    2. hi. Big confused elephant here again. so, just to be clear, its in your opinion; that its solely a choice to do something unnatural, and therefore not qualified to be defined as a marriage, based only on your religious definitions and your personal beliefs. in other words - tough titty to all the people who have suffered and fought and are still fighting for everyones equality, even you 411. because I am positive that these arguments have already been covered Holly GRETCHEN and myself. Also thanks for the train and golf references. They are an unending source of amusement.

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    3. in the radio program...when someone asked, if two adults love each other- it doesn't matter the gender. Well, then..like Tina Turner's song- ''whats love got to do with it''. I love my Dad, my uncles, my best buddies- and it has nothing to do with sex. As it goes, gender physicality first- then the mind follows the rationale. If the mind is disordered-, do we change the gender?..no we fix the damaged psyche. There are alternatives to proclaiming gay. Theres a cure. You can hate me for saying all this- but I just wanted to point some things out.

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    4. Being gay is not a disease to be cured. But since we are talking cures for non-diseases its a shame there isn't a cure for your ignorance.

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    5. Catholic411, I'm afraid you didn't understand what I meant. I'm not saying my interpretation of the Bible is correct. I'm saying ALL of them can be read and applied incorrectly, and I believe that's what's happenining in the "religious" debate against homosexual marriage. I'm saying that when what we read in the Bible disagrees with the scientific evidence of the physical world around us, we are reading the Bible incorrectly. I have more faith in God's creation than in the translated word of man. That was my point.

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  38. Bonnie, does that make you cringe?...Because in reality when a man and a women engage in sexual activities- they are complementary to each other. The woman's beautiful vagina is designed by nature to receive the male's organs- biologically its a wonderful symphony- if you will! Now lets look at two males?..ugh.. You cannot replace the anal cavity for the beautiful poetry of a woman's splendor...no way, there are no words for it. If the equipment is not complementary- we have to step back and see why...which means something has gone very very wrong.

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  39. How many times do I need to repeat myself before you get it? I really don't care what YOU consider MORAL. It is YOUR opinion. It is NOT a fact. Morality is subjective and varies by the individual. The church you are referring to does NOT embrace all. If it did then we wouldn't be having this argument. What you mean to say it is embraces all who believe the same as you do. The church (your church...not mine...because shocker...there are actually churches that accept gays!! OMG!) would cast aside and shun anyone who was admittedly gay. When you ACCEPT someone it doesn't come with conditions. The church embraces what the people IN IT embrace. That is why there are so many offshoots of varying religions. Because not everyone in that church believes the same things. You know why?? Because we are ALL guessing. No one knows for sure. So you live your life the way you feel is moral and right and I will do the same. If you are Jewish or Buddhist or Muslim or Catholic, etc you have different beliefs. Different ideas of what is moral. IT ISN'T THE LAW THAT GOVERNS OUR NATION. Its your RELIGION and that is separate.

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  40. How dare you again say what is beautiful!!! Maybe a woman is beautiful to YOU. Making love to someone who embraces your heart and soul, no matter what sex that person is, is beautiful. You are discussing body parts and physical actions. Sex is as much emotional as it is physical and if it isn't for you then I am sorry...for you AND your partner.

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  41. Oh Catholic, what a stupid argument as I'm sure you have never engaged in cunnilingus or felatio right? After all, those parts were not intended to receive those other parts. I will say that two people expressing their love for one another does not make me cringe at all. I don't have any desire to know what happens in anyone's bedroom as it is none of my business, just as it is none of yours what I and my husband do. Your obsession with proper body part alignment is a bit worrisome. I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic school, parents heavily involved in the church. I know how celibate men and women tell you how you should think about your body and the "shameful and sinful" things you should not do with it and for God's sake don't touch it! Boy, they really made you obsessive about your parts, no worries though, I'm sure there is reparative therapy for that. Being heavily involved in the Catholic Church, I saw the man behind the curtain and know how completely fallable that system is. Again, this is not a debate about where parts go so I will not address that again, nor will I address religion anymore as time has proven that debate will never be resolved until each of us meets our maker. This is simply a debate about equal rights for ALL human beings. I notice how you have yet to address that issue. I know why you don't... because you can't possibly make an argument against all human beings being equal in the eyes of the law without having any religious ideology involved. I expect that you will again go back to talking about body parts and religion and never address the actual purpose of this blog, so this will more than likely be the last time I address you. One more thing, I find it very telling that those of us defending the rights of others and proud of our thoughts put our names to it and don't hide behind a screen name... hhmmmmmmmmmm...

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  42. Bonnie I love it... cunnilingus or felatio. So much sex in the christian world not intended to produce children. What a sin! I hope they get on their knees 'begging' for forgiveness. :)

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  43. mmm..heres some links for you folks. do take care to listen.
    http://www.catholic.com/radio/shows/understanding-same-sex-attraction-part-ii-6978
    http://www.catholic.com/radio/shows/the-psychology-of-homosexuality-4171
    http://www.catholic.com/search/content/nicolosi

    check it out. If anyting, something amusing for you guys. But if you take something from it..well
    good.

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    1. So you are referring us to materials created by an organization who has leaders that elected a Pope that was on the wrong side of WWII, shuffles priests around who have been accused of rape and molestation yet condemns two loving adults in a committed relationship?

      What gives the CATHOLIC CHURCH any authority on anything? Don’t get me started on the wealth of The Catholic Church and all the hungry parishioners in South America, Africa and right here in the USA.

      Give me a break. Like Holly said, I wish there was a cure for your lack of common sense.

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  44. Hello David. Lets see. Israeli diplomat and scholar Pinchas Lapide who said that “The Catholic Church under the pontificate of Pius XII was instrumental in saving the lives of as many as 860,000 Jews from certain death at Nazi hands.”

    also, post war- a play called "The Deputy" assumed a lot of historical assumptions about Pope Pius XXII during WWII. I can cite you tons of books both christian and jewish..but you wouldn't care reading those.

    I can feel your hatred fuming from your response.

    You are right, homosexual priests have been shuffled, just like any other institutions (public schools-rubber rooms)- instead of putting these homosexuals to prisons- their time has come, a lot of checks and balances have been put in place.

    Gretchen- as christians, we are to engage in the search for the truth. I value that you are proud to be a christian-nevermind being a protestant or what, but my dialogue to you is that...did Jesus say "upon this rock, I will build my church? or churches? There are some things to question...

    the wealth of the catholic church. If you were a regular church goer, you would know the budget and finances of parishes- are just enough to run the parish because a whole lot of it goes to soup kitchens and meals on wheels and the never ending charities that the catholic church provide.

    so you're ignorant notions on the wealth of the church is laughable-but I expect it from someone like you.

    still...denying the fact that many homosexuals have been cured because of reparative therapy simply cannot be ignored. It is a maladaptation. Not the fault of the homosexual, but the need to understand the condition is imperative- instead of politicizing it.

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    1. I think I touched a nerve.

      I was not discussing Pius XII but rather Benedict XVI. Nonetheless, we all have opinions regardless if they are founded on scientific truth, faith values or just wild crazy thoughts.

      In my book the only real truth is scientific, nothing you or I have said have been scientific. However, our founding fathers did document and cement into our democracy that all men are equal and that the church and state will remain separate.

      By the way, I listed to one of your radio posts yesterday. It disgusted me to no end. What made it worse is that the 'self proclaimed expert conversion therapy psychologist' could not come up with the acronym of GLBT and he and the host made lite of the acronym and then said to ad GLBT – EX. How obnoxious, at that point all credibility was lost by their dismissive behavior.

      Once final thought on this glorious Monday morning. We have all posted with our names and faces. Why is it you continue to cloak yourself like you are preaching to us from a confessional shrouded in disguise? If you were a true disciple you would have nothing to hide.

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    2. show me the part in the constitution or anywhere else where it mentions "separation of church and state"..nu-uh...you won't find that in there. that term is found in a letter of Jefferson.

      in your book, the real truth is scientific?..I'm giving you scientific resources on narth.com.
      These are professional people that are trying to make sense of science, in psychology instead of disingenuous biased and politically correct assumption.

      of course you are discussing Benedict XVI. if you are referring to him being a member of the nazi youth- sure, He was indeed the member of the nazi youth. All kids during the nationalist-socialist were required to be part of the nazi youth-, there was no choice. I'm sure you are irked because he is a pope that have sent bishops to excommunicate dissenting and 'gay' clerics-and sent them packing.

      whatever accusations you have, I will have an answer. I am concerned for the truth. I don't hate homosexuals-gay or not. Something traumatic has pushed them there- its not their fault- but to completely ignore the nature of the disorder and politicize it. At work, whenever I offer this truth- at first they admit the root cause-but the hurt is so much-that they turn away from the conversation. This is a serious matter.

      have a great week.

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    3. Actually, Jesus said neither, because Jesus didn't speak English. What you're quoting is a translation of a translation from a language that is no longer used. And, while we're here, lets not forget the early leaders of the Catholic Church decided what books would constitute the Bible. What about those that were left out? What about the gnostic texts? What about the fact that 3 of the 4 gospels disagree about the exact events surrounding the birth of Christ and the order in which they happened?? The purpose of the Word is to follow the spirit of the teachings, not necessarily the letter. If you get so hung up on whether a word is singular or plural (church vs churches), than you have truly lost the meaning of Christ's sermon and that is a pity.

      And now I think my debate with you is at a close. Because, unless I'm reading your comment incorrectly, it looks like you have an issue with protestants in addition to homosexuals. Being a protestant does not make me less of a Christian anymore than being a homosexual makes someone less of a person. While this has been a fun religious debate, I'm growing bored of the circular logic. We have debated nearly every religious angle there is, but at the end of the day, we have a separation of church and state in this country that (should, at least) render the religious argument superfilous. Yes, I know the actual language "separation of church and state" is in a letter, not the Constitution. However, the First Amendment to the Constitution states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ..." This protects your right no NOT enter into a homosexual relationship if your religion dictates otherwise (which is obviously does), but it also prohibits you and others of your same religious beliefs from imposing those beliefs upon others.

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    4. Well said Gretchen!Christians love to cherry-pick what they want to believe in, they even did it with the bible! Just today, a lady I work with who goes to church several times a week and has gone on and on several times about what you have to do to get into heaven, that it isn't enough to be a good person, you have to accept Jesus as your savior etc. etc., was looking at her Facebook and got a post of Usain Bolt running in the Olympics and there was a little girl in front of him holding a chicken leg. I found it horribly offensive and her behavior unbelievably un-Christian-like as she laughed so hard I thought she would fall off her chair or pee herself. I'm sure Jesus is proud to have her in his flock. It made me sick to my stomach that someone would belittle Usain Bolt in that manner, a man who has worked very hard his whole life to become the best in the world. So many Christians are such hypocrits it's unsettling.

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    5. Too true, Bonnie. And it seems those self-defined Christians who yell the longest and the loudest are the biggest hypocrits around.

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  45. here is a link that is secular but it is transcript of an ex-gay man.

    http://josephnicolosi.com/living-in-harmony-with-ones/

    be inclusive- there are those...and then there are those other...

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    1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCX3ZNDZAwY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

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    2. Perfect... just Imagine???? trying for over 20 years. =))

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  46. I know it was addressed to Bonnie, but since it seems this is what the argument is coming down to, I wanted to answer. Do I find male/make sex unnatural, gross, or "cringe" worthy? No. Not at all. I'm not saying that for the sake of arguing, anal sex (which seems to be the issue at hand, but which is also a act in which heterosexual couples can engage and has NOTHING to do with a legislative argument) does not bother me. I occasionally read romance novels to unwind. Some of them are erotic (why not, I'm an adult), and of those, some are male/male erotic. A love story is a love story is a love story to me. I don't care if the characters are male/female, male/male, or female/female, as long as they are authentic. And again, sexual pairings has nothing to do with a legistlative argument. I just wanted to stress that no, not everyone finds homosexual intimacy gross. That is your opinion.

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  47. Didn't see your reply, Bonnie, before typing my own (sorry!). I was just horrified by Catholic411's response and immediately started typing. What you said, though, is perfect.

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  48. I am tired of seeing your name pop up with more ignorance, Catholic. This is not going to be nice but if someone has to be straight up about it, I'll be the asshole. I tried commenting before and it didn't go through and I didn't feel like saying it all again, so in a nutshell... Catholic, you can say "oh I don't hate gays, blah blah blah" Let's call it what it is. You can come up with all the crazy religious arguments you want to hide behind. We have heard them all and clearly you have been shot down time and time and time and time ...and time and time... again (sorry gretchen, I know you hate ellipses).
    Catholic, you hate gay people and what they represent and try to cover it with the veil of religion and "psychology." Maybe you are gay and just don't know how to deal with it so you take it out on those who try to live their life in the open out of jealousy. I don't know and frankly, don't give two shits about you anymore. The more you post the more I cannot wait for the day for the "old guard" (all the old fucks in this world who share your outdated and quite bigoted views) to die off so those of us with common sense about law and how law should be separate from religion (because let's be honest, every time religion has dictated law in history, things get all screwed up) can start the cleanup from the years of abuse of a group of human beings.

    I have hope for the future in that all the polls taken show that the younger population are hugely in favor of allowing gay unions/marriage. I guess open mindedness is a youthful thing. Eventually you and those who share your bigotry will be irrelevant, confined to small town radio stations in redneck parts of the south where they also believe that slavery was a great idea too. Until then, I hope your computer gets a virus that plays gay porn 24 hours a day so you can finally release all those demons you have kept deep inside for so long.

    Sorry for making this a not so civil post, but frankly, civility just keeps us going round and round with more and more ridiculous citations from religious websites and clips, allowing for more spreading of propaganda and baseless research and I have had enough.

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    1. Ellipses used properly and to good effect, you'll hear no complaint from me :)

      The "gays can't help they're gay and should be pitied...and then rehabilitated" (see, I've learned to embrace the ellipses!) argument reminds me of the "African Americans are mentally inferior and therefore need Caucasians to make decisions concerning their rights” argument. It’s a subtler form of discrimination, and more devious because it takes the position of pitying self-righteousness. It allows people to hide behind a cry of “I don’t hate gays, I just want to help them because they can’t help themselves.” It’s every bit as bigoted as the flawed notion of White Man’s Burden and assumes every homosexual is locked in a miserable lifestyle waiting for rescue. What could be more insulting?

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  49. So well said it made me laugh out loud! I'm now envisioning a huge batman signal, only instead of a bat it's male genitalia and lights up the heavens whenever gay sex is about to occur.

    "Holy fornication, Jesus! Two consenting adults are about to have same sex intercourse. Quick, to the coitous-interuptus mobile!"

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  50. You want to know the funniest, most tragically ridiculous part of this entire argument? That in a world so full of hate and vitriol, where the mentally unstable shoot up schools and movie theaters, generations of young people fight wars for reasons the politicians can’t even agree on, and big businesses are bailed out to the tune of millions while starving families live on the streets…we’re having this argument because a group of people want the right to love openly and proudly, without fear or a diminishment of their “inalienable” human rights. This world needs more love, not less.

    I sincerely hope my son comes of age in a better, more tolerant world than the one we have today.

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  51. Good Morning All...

    The lord and god blesses me in so many ways. Just today 'he' delivered this into my facebook feed.

    You just have to love the fact that the Roman Catholic Church is in the porn business in Germany.
    http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/08/15/the-catholic-church-and-german-porn/

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  52. We may not be friends but I thank you for your words.

    https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/553724_4099910410328_1492108159_n.jpg

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